Egypt cleric 'to ban full veils'

Update 3: From MR’s tweet/blog

Shaykh Tantanwi said he respects the niqab and that there’s no harm for niqaabis to come to his office in order to end this issue. He also confirmed that the niqab is a custom and not from worship (عبادة) and at the same time he stated he has no objection to it.

He denied what was published in some newspapers which quoted him saying to a pupil in an azhari school “if you were even a little beautiful you wouldn’t be wearing this”. He also denied saying that he knows the religion better than you and your family to the pupil.

He also made clear in a special statement, which he stated on the Egyptian program “The House is Your House” (a very famous talk show in Egyptian fyi) When I went to inspect one of the azhari schools (“Ahmad Libi” <- name of the school where the incident occurred, located in Nasr city behind the international park) at the beginning of the new school year, I entered the school accompanied by members of the school board (of that school) and came across approximately 15 students (all girls). One of the girls was wearing the niqab, so I said to her raise your niqab. Not only did she not responsed but she just stood there stunned. So then I requested the teacher to remove the niqab in order so that I can talk to her. The niqab was then removed by force.

He then said to her, why do you wear the niqab when you’re with other female students? Then he stated there is no need for the niqab in this case. He also added there’s no stopping a female student from wearing the niqab while attending the morning assembly, but when she enters the classroom she must take the niqab off.

Side note from translator: The third paragraph I changed a few pronouns from the original text fyi just so that the text would flow better< Just in case an Arab reads this translation mention this..

Hmmm… So… how did we get from this, well, more benign (and less insulting) account to “I know more than your parents and anyway if you were beautiful what would you do then”? Is this just an unfortunate game of “telephone” gone awry, or a scholar who maybe did something really insulting and uncouth trying to do damage control? Allahu alim.

And I’ve been reading where many have said to give Sh. Tantawi the benefit of the doubt, that maybe we should make excuses for him, etc., well, IMHO, I can still say that what he did, if it was indeed as bad as the original reports suggested, was not a very good thing, at the very least, and that probably the girl was embarrassed, humiliated, etc., (I know I’d be if I were in her shoes), yet say, hey, perhaps something is wrong, i.e., memory failure, old age, mental issues, etc. Meaning, I can still give him his 70 excuses, yet not excuse, if he did indeed say this, the fact that he not only embarrassed and humiliated the girl, but insulted her parents too, and did so in front of teachers, students, and the rest of his enterage alike.

Which brings me to something else, on “making excuses”, I’m wondering if the “making excuses for my brother/sister” excuse prevents many of us from, I don’t know, talking about abuse, domestic violence, and other issues in our community because “ya know, we must make 70 excuses for our brother”, what does that mean exactly? Does that mean we ignore things like, I don’t know humiliation and abuse of our sisters becuase ya know, something could be going on that we don’t know about? I know I’m going off on a tangent with this but I’m just sayin’. I’m all about making 70 excuses if, just as an example, my husband was in a bad mood and snapped at me yesterday, or if a friend or family member was rude to me, or whatever. But how can you make 70 excuses for “if you were beautiful then what would you have done then”? I’m sorry, but this is a stretch and I’ve been wondering if this is just a further example of lay Muslims being afraid to question “scholars”, or “shaykhs”, or other leaders of the community.

And I freely admit that I’m not perfect, and anything where a woman/girl is hurt, abused, offended, etc., will get me all worked up and I’ll be more likely to say all kinds of things that I’d want to take back later. But I have to say, I’d rather speak out first, if we’re talking about abuse, humiliation, etc., and then turn out to be wrong and have to retract my statement, than to not have said anything at all, or worse, enabled the behavior by “making 70 excuses”, etc., for the person doing the abusing, etc.

Update 2: It seems that Yusuf has also weighed in on this (here and here), as well as Seeking Ilm, and MuslimMatters. And it also seems that per Yusuf’s and Sh. Yasir Qadhi’s statements, it was much worse than just a scholar telling a girl that she didn’t need to wear niqab. From MuslimMatters:

In case some are still unfamiliar with the details of the event which occurred two days ago, here are the details which have been reported by a number of reliable eye-witnesses and the media. When the Grand Shaykh was invited to address a group of young female high-school students, he noticed one of them wearing a face-veil (niqab). This seemed to irritate his Excellency rather mightily, and, his conscience so roused, he proceeded to ask the supercilious girl to remove her veil (of course, he is not the first person to do so, having been preceded by the likes of Jack Straw and Tony Blair, amongst other honorable mentions). The girl refused, and said rather innocently that it was her habit to wear it, and she did not show her face to strangers. The Shaykh’s sense of right became even more miffed, so he proceeded to pontificate rather starkly, “The niqab is nothing but culture – it has absolutely no relationship whatsoever with the religion of Islam.” Thus buttressed, he then boldly asked her once again to take off the intimidating cloth. Rather surprisingly, the young girl rejected the demands of the senior-most religious authority in Egypt, stood her ground, and once again reiterated that she was uncomfortable with any man seeing her. The esteemed scholar could not take such an insult to his honorable demand so lightly, nor could he allow a sixteen-year old girl to get the better of him! The temerity of such a girl deserved that the Grand Shaykh put her in her place. Gathering all the might and courage that he needed – for 16 year old girls are known for their tempers and bad moods – he charged on, blasting, “I have already told you that the niqab has absolutely nothing to do with the religion, and it is something that is from custom!” To drive the point home, he added, in a crude Egyptian vernacular, “…and I know the religion better than you, and those who gave birth to you (i.e., your parents).” Of course, such langues was completely justified, as how else was the coarse and ill-mannered young lady going to be taught the refined manners of Islam? Petrified and terrified, intimidated and bullied by a man four times her age, embarrassed in front of her peers and teachers and media by the highest-ranking religious authority in the land, the young lady felt she had no choice but to take off the blameworthy fabric. The Shaykh of al-Azhar, satisfied and vindicated, threw in his final blow, to really put the girl in her place, and teach her a well-deserved lesson that she would never forget. Outdoing his crude expression of a few moments ago by a number of exponential notches, he said, “Ama law kunti hilwa shuwaya la-amilti eh?”

Alas! English simply cannot do justice to the coarseness and incivility of the Shaykh’s street-manner talk (which, of course, the impudent young girl fully deserved). While the vulgarity and tone of the language might fool some people, in fact what the Shaykh really did was to skillfully and subtly demonstrate that, despite his high office and erudite mastery of the religion, he was completely in tune with the riff-raffs and hooligans of the alleyways of Cairo. A rough translation – albeit without the vulgar connotations of the Arabic (and my apologies to our English readers for the loss of the coarseness) – would be, “So if you were even a little beautiful, what would you have done then?” The implication, of course, was that the egotistical girl was presuming herself to be worthy of participating in a beauty pageant, hence covering her face out of fear of tempting others. Little did she realize that she was not even qualified to use the adjective ‘beautiful’ in the same sentence as her name! The wise and nurturing religious father-figure of the nation made sure that the self-esteem of this young sixteen year old girl would forever be shattered – so let all teachers pay heed to the lessons that the Shaykh imparts through his astounding pedagogical skills.

And Yusuf’s blog quotes thusly:

“Why are you wearing the niqab while sitting in the class with your female colleagues?” Al-Azhar Grand Imam Sheikh Mohamed Sayyed Tantawi asked the 8th grader.

The young girl was shocked with the question coming from the country’s top scholar.

A teacher intervened to explain.

“She takes off her niqab inside the class, but she only put it on when you and your entourage came in.”

But Sheikh Tantawi was not satisfied and insisted that the young girl takes off the face cover.

“The niqab is a tradition and has nothing to do with Islam.”

After the girl complied he insisted she should not wear it any more.

“I tell you again that the niqab has nothing to do with Islam and it is only a mere custom. I understand the religion better than you and your parents.”

And I don’t even know where to begin with this! It seems that Sh. Tantawi is going to issue a fatwa, to ban niqab, based on a run-in with a girl he saw wearing it, who explained to him why she wor it, and he didn’t agree with that, etc., I mean, it’s almost as if he’s going to issue this all because he felt shown up by a school girl. I mean, why had he not issued such a fatwa, banning niqab, before? And also, based on the story of Evon Ridley not wanting to shake his hand, it’s almost as if he feels entitled to something, because his tone seems to be “how dare you” any time a woman is trying to be modest, either because she’s covered or because she won’t shake his hand, it’s almost as if he feels entitled to see a woman uncovered or entitled to shake a woman’s hand, just because he thinks he can. Though I know I can’t say for sure, but that seemed to be the tone of his reaction in both articles. So it’s not merely about a scholarly difference of opinion, etc., to me, it seems to be more about a man, violating a woman’s personal space, and thinking he could get away with it, because he’s a man (and oh yeah a scholar too who supposedly knows more about Islam than both of these women do and makes sure to tell them so), and she a woman/schoolgirl, and when said woman/girl said no, or otherwise infers that he does not have the right to violate her personal space he not only insults her in front of everyone, but in the case of the girl, insults her parents as well.

And the unfortunate thing, which I mentioned earlier, is/was that non-Muslims will start using this so-called “ruling”/fatwa to start banning niqab in their jurisdictions, and according to this, they are already starting to do so, or thinking of it. So this incident will, I think, have wide-ranging implications, and it’s really unfortunate that a so-called scholar had to act like this.

Update: Yursil also discusses this issue and from another article he linked:

A security official also told The Associated Press that police have standing verbal orders to bar girls covered from head to toe from entering al-Azhar’s institutions, including middle and high schools, as well as the dormitories of several universities in Cairo.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he’s not authorized to speak to the press, said the ban was for security reasons.

The moves appear to be part of a government campaign cracking down on increasingly overt manifestations of ultraconservative Islam in Egypt….

And I have nothing further to add but to convey my feelings of sadness at this point. And while “this doesn’t affect me” as I don’t wear niqab and I don’t live in Egypt, as I say further down in this post, it really sets a bad precedent, and me thinks, from what little I know, that there’s much proof for the niqab at the very least being highly recommended and encouraged nd not something strange or “innovative” as some like to say. Bu then again, these are the same sorts of arguments you here against hijab, that it was “cultural”, that it’s a symbol of extremism, etc., but I’ve said this already…

Assalamu alaikum, this gave me a “this can’t be good” feeling when I read it. And I’ll state for the record that I do not, as yet, wear the niqab, and I can’t say that I’d ever aspire to any time in the future. However, this doesn’t mean that I don’t support it, or encourage other women to, and it doesn’t mean I’m against it. (It’s kinda like my feelings on polygamy, I don’t see myself participating in a polygamous union now, however I’d not rule it out in the future just because you can never say never and I don’t think it, in and of itself is wrong, but I’m digressing.) The first thought I had was “wasn’t this guy the same one who made some controversial statements about hijab a few years back?” Though what controversial statements those were, I don’t remember off the top of my head, though someone on an email list I’m on said it had something to do with the French having the right to impose a ban on hijab and that Muslims living in said country should abide by that, etc., and then I think there was some kinda caveat to the affect of “because hijab isn’t necessary/obligatory anyway, it’s just a cultural custom”, though this later supposition from said scholar I’m not sure about regarding hijab, but it definitely, per the BBC article, seems to be his argument regarding niqab. And not only is it “not Islamic” and just “cultural” but it’s “extremist” as well, and I think this is the problem I have with the idea of banning niqab, i.e., the idea that wearing niqab in and of itself means you are, or wearing it will make you, an “extremist”. Who’d have thought that putting on a piece of fabric would turn you into a raving “extremist”, I never thought that a piece of cloth over the face would all of a sudden cause such a change in one’s disposition. But in a way, it’s the same silly argument that many use against hijab, that a piece of cloth on the head will magicly turn one into an oppressed and lowly woman.

Anyway, if the scholar thinks the niqab isn’t obligatory that is one thing but saying it should be banned? This, IMHO, sets a dangerous precedent, because if a so-called Muslim scholar says something like this, then it will give non-Muslim governments, employers, organizations, etc., carte blanche to start banning the niqab because “scholar so-and-so” banned it. And the same goes for hijab while we’re on the subject. Because it’s one thing to say “hijab isn’t required”, or niqab for that matter, to saying “hijab should be banned because it’s not required, and by the way it’s a symbol of extremism and oppression anyway”. And this is just something that I can’t agree with, because where do we stop. We ban niqab today, hijab tomorrow, next what? Praying 5 times a day? Because there are many things that seem “extreme” to non-Muslims, and the requirement to pray 5 times daily, at specific times, is but one thing, in addition to hijab and niqab (and polygamy too), and I’ve seen this firsthand when visiting my family. When I was explaining to my mom that I had to pray, and that I’d missed a couple of my prayers and had to make them up, she kind of had a “it’s OK, it’s no big deal, why are you so concerned” tone in her voice. The same with hijab, the “you don’t have to wear that thing here” the “you’re no better than us because you pray 5 times a day or put a scarf on your head”, etc. So if you want to argue from an Islamic basis why niqab isn’t necessary, that’s one thing, but to argue for a ban of it, because in today’s climate it just so happens to be a symbol, to some, of “extremism”, is just wrong, again, IMHO. Islamic concepts should be argued from an Islamic point of view, not argued based on the whims and caprices of the “modern” world or what non-Muslims think of our practices and customs. Because where will it end? The day that a scholar from Al-Azhar tells the Muslims that we don’t have to pray if our employer bans prayer in the workplace?