To Support a Petition (or not)
Posted by Ginny on June 3, 2007
Assalamu alaikum, Yusuf blogs about the now seemingly infamous “mega-mosque petition”, the appeals to sign it of which have been left on many people’s blog comments. I actually left a comment on Umar Lee’s blog, stating that while I was in favor of petitions, as a whole, I didn’t much appreciate having them left in my comments area on a post that had nothing to do with the subject of the petition.
Anyway, the way that the person pushing for all of us to sign the petition has gone about expressing his disagreement with Yusuf, I, and possibly others who have objected to his tactics of getting the word out regarding the petition, in my opinion, negates any good he was seeking to do, or encourage others to do, by signing/supporting such an effort.
Yusuf has already responded to the comments dealing with him (and to some extent me), and since I don’t want to pretend to speak for or defend Yusuf, I’ll only address what was specifically directed to me.
“Then there’s his friend Ginny, who’s more concerned
about Akon then striking a blow for Islam and supporting that which benefits Muslims.”
Again, I reiterate that it’s not the petition itself that I necessarily have a problem with, it’s having spam comments about said petition, in my comments box, that have *nothing* to do with the topic of the blog post, that I objected to! And then having the person pushing you to support said petition going and lying, slandering, and taking gibes at people because they raise such objections.
Whatever “good” that you hoped to have gained by encouraging others to support this petition, has completely been negated by how you’ve decided to go after those who disagreed with how you’ve gone about encouraging us to support the petition in the first place.
And from what I understand, this petition isn’t so much about Muslims “supporting the mosque”, as it is about getting non-Muslims to sign it, to demonstrate that they are not bigoted and thus are not against the building of the mosque on bigoted grounds. So what does this have to do with Muslims? It would be like someone asking black people to sign a petition saying that they are not racists! To illustrate my point, I quote from the words of the petition as follows:
“I think that it would show how tolerant we are of other religions to build a large Mosque for people to worship at. Those who say that it would incite violence
give not only christians, but a large part of England, a bad name. So I urge you to sign this petition, whatever your religion, as long as you belive in
tolerance.”
This is not about asking Muslims to support a project that benefits them, which, incidentally, is still going forward anyway, but this is about non-Muslims being encouraged to sign a petition, showing *their* support for the building of the mosque, on the grounds that they are tolerant, open-minded, and not bigoted.
Had this been a petition, directed at Muslims, encouraging them to sign a petition to support a project, this is different. And in any case, I have no problem supporting either effort. However, I don’t want to be forced into it, I don’t want to be guilt-tripped into it, and I don’t want the insinuation made, that if I, for whatever reason, object to either signing the petition, or having messages/comments about the petition posted on my blog, in an area that has *nothing* whatsoever to do with anything related to the topic, that I am somehow damaging the Ummah, hurting the Muslims, or “not striking a blow for Islam”!
And the defamatory post that has been written, in response to I and Yusuf, who have objected to both the way in which information about the petition was posted, as well as the contents/wording of the petition itself, have definitely made me *not* to want to support such an effort! And have also made me wonder about the “state of the Muslims” for someone to act in this way, simply because we express our disagreements to them on something they have done!
Regarding Akon, IMHO, his actions, as someone who professes Islam, could have a “more detrimental affect” on me as a Muslim, than whether or not a “mega-mosque” is, or is not, constructed in Britain! Because when Akon goes out on the radio airwaves of I think, the largest radio market in the country, on one of the top-rated radio stations in the country, and starts spouting off about “Islam”, “culture”, “polygamy”, etc., and then people, ostensibly non-Muslims, take away negative impressions of Muslims, Africans, etc., from hearing this exchange, when he chooses to use aspect of his relgion as a publicity stunt, to me, that is more detrimental to Islam and Muslims than whether a mosque is, or is not, constructed. Because to me, it is just as important to speak out or express your concerns about someone claiming to represent Islam and Muslims, while acting as anything but the way the majority of Muslims should act, and at the same time, claiming that their behavior is “OK” or “acceptable”, as it is to voice your support for the construction of a mosque, be it “mega” or otherwise. However, this petition is not asking Muslims, in and of themselves, to support the building of the mosque anyway.
And whatever decisions Muslims make, whether we decide to sign the petition or not, the rise or fall of the Ummah isn’t going to hinge upon whether Yusuf, I, or anyone else sign the petition or decline to sign it!
Aaminah said
Asalaamu alaikum ukhti,
I am sorry to hear that you and brother Yusuf are getting so much attitude over this. In my case, I deleted the comment because, as you said, it was irrelevent to my blog posts where it was posted. But I did post on my blog for anyone else to go read the brother’s blog if they were interested and a reminder that if you want me to help you spread the word about stuff like this, just email me because I didn’t appreciate having it in the comments. So you and Yusuf are not the only ones who made mention of that matter, yet the brother thanked me for posting it…Now, I didn’t actually read the petition, and only knew there were other issues when I got the pingback from Yusuf and read his post, which based on his statements, I was in agreement with. I haven’t signed the petition myself and I won’t because, like you, I don’t feel my signature is relevent on it. But to start trashing brothers and sisters for disagreeing with it is pretty lame and I’m sorry that you have to deal with that.
jamal said
Asalaamu alaikum
What an exaggeration, you have been “forced” into anything. I do not see the relevance of the point of this petition being created by a non-muslim (christian) seeing that many Christians are the “closest people in friendship to the believers”, while many Christians are married to Muslims.
It is not a “christian” petition and it would be wrong to consider it so, as it is a petition to “go forward” with plans to build the mosque. The petition creator has started an effort which asisst MUslims in this respect and sympathisises with our causes. Therefore it is not for you or I to belittle that just because he does not have an arabic sounding name, particularly when I do not see a petition created by a Muslim, but hear of many Muslims that signed the other petition against it that was created by a facist.
I apologise if you have taken offence for me posting on your blog, particularly since it interferred with your post about a man who recently had to apologise for cavorting on stage with an underage girl, but nevertheless, I stand by what I have said.
Ginny said
Assalamu alaikum Aaminah, you know, I’m sure it’d be hard to believe this now, however, when I first saw the comment, I did actually debate to myself on whether or not to publsih it or not. However, I thought “what does this have to do with the topic I’m writing about at the moment”? And then when I saw this posting on other blogs, and then also when I’d read the petition itself, and further when I saw the reaction of this person when people had reservations about his posting comments regarding this petition anywhere and everywhere, whether it had anything to do with the subjec tor not, basically, that if you ahve a problem with it, no matter how small, you deserve to be lied about, slandered, attacked, etc., then I just htought, well, absolutely not, would I publish this! I think there is a better way to go about asking people to support a cause than the way it was handled, and also if people have concerns about the way you’re going about something, there’s also a better way to handle that too. And this wasn’t it.
Ginny said
Assalamu alaikum, Jamal, you are *totally* missing my point! I do not *object* to the petition, and I understand your reasons for asking Muslism to support it! That is not my point! And I think it was a wonderful idea for Aaminah to decide to post the link to your lbog post on her blog, which I’d actually thought about doing myself, I actually still have your comment in the cue waiting to be approved, in other words, I’ve not deleted your comment. However, see how you’ve treated others who do not disagree with you (including myself), leaves a bad taste in my mouth about this whole thing. To me, it’s *not* about Christians and Muslims helping each other at all! But the gist of the petition was not mainly meant for Muslims, it was meant, mainly, ofr non-Muslims to express their “tolerance” tot he building of a mosque. Sure, Muslims could sign it, there is nothing wrong with that, however, this is limited to those living in Britain, which I do not. When you accuse peopl of things, in order to goad them into signing somehting you want them to sign, when you accuse someone of “not supporting Muslims”, you are indeed trying to “force’ someone into doing something *you* want them to do, by trying to make them feel badly for *not* doing what *you* want them to do.
At any rate, as I said before, whatever good you were seeking to accomplish (and yes, it was a laudalbe goal), has completely been wiped away by your conduct toward those who express reservations about how you’ve gone about soliciting people to sign this particular petition. That is all I’m saying. And Inshallah, I’m finished with htis whole discussion.
jamal said
Wa alaikum assalam
I take on board what you have said, however it is you that have missed the point. Firstly the petition is primarily to promote building of the mosque. Its secondary reference to christians is also correlated with reference to ‘people of England’, which includes Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Nevertheless, if a Christian can start a petition to pursue a cause that benefits Muslims, then the least I can do it support that effort, particularly when it is for the building of a mosque and is specifically aimed at combatting the Islamophobic effect/impact of a previous petition started by a facist, which it is widely known that Muslims signed, wrongly in my opinion.
Secondly, to explain, I was touched by the effort of the Christian petition creator and therefore did not create my own petition as I did not want to undermine the positive effort of this man and those that had already signed it. Therefore I instead decided to promote the petition in order to give it some coverage, something which others I know have done also. This I posted on a number of blogs, particularly Muslim owned blogs to bring their attention to it and ask for their support.
If you had an email or open thread it would have been forwarded in this manner, however you did not and I thought it acceptable to leave it on your most recent post as people bring my attention to things in the same way, and I personally have no problem with this. There was no compulsion for you to adhere to what I said and I assumed you would delete or ignore the comment at your choosing. As I said, I only came here to inform.
What I take exception to is that another person decided to comment on my comments on the blogs of others by debating it on the blogs of others, making reference to al-Muhajiroun, rather then on his own, to which you and another decided to join in. Instead of responding to my response, emailling me or positng on my own blog, this person created a post on his own blog about it in an attempt to draw negative attention to my promotion of an issue that I feel is relevant to me.
Rather then this tag-team effect and attempts at defamation of character, either of you only had to say they did not wish to support such a thing, and for this reason I have outlined the above and expressed my view on this in the post you have read.
Thirdly, to attempt to say my ‘laudalbe’ attempts at promoting the petition have been undermined by pointing out the negative actions of you and your aquaitances is a redundant view as it is not my petition and the benefits of its intention remain, just as do the intentions of me promoting the petition, and over 150 people have signed it in this 2 day period possibly as a result.
I have taken the time to clarify my postion to you as I feel you initially acted in a manner to support your affiliations with others, and I should therefore let you see that direct communication is always the best method, particularly if we want to understand others and avoid making a mountain out of a molehill. What I have said here and elsewhere is clear for all to see. That being said, let us have no negative feeling between us due to a diference of opinion/interests.
UmmZaid said
Salaam ‘alaikum
If it’s “for people of England,” then why pick on Ginny for not signing it? She’s an American.
BTW, there is a superior way to show support for this masjid, and that is making du’a to the One Who Gives Victory.
I approved your comment even though it was OT, but I haven’t signed it. I’m not English.
jamal said
Wa Alaikum Asalaam
My exp[lanation is clear as detailed above and on the original post on my blog. Additionally my point is clear and has been made. Nonetheless, if you or Ginny are made to feel I am ‘picking’ on her, then for this I offer my apology as it was not my intention.
Aaminah said
Asalaamu alaikum.
“If you had an email…”
For the record, my email address is all over my blog, and yet this matter was submitted OT in my comments. I’ve noticed that some other blogs where it was submitted and approved to stay in OT comments, they also have their email address available.
The level of pressure to support something is still not necessary. It is one thing to inform people of something, and a whole other thing to name-call and post repeatedly on how you think they are being unsupportive.
I also did not sign the petition because I understood it to be for Britons, and more for non-Muslims to express their support. As an American Muslim, my signature would have been irrelevent. Upon reading the petition, as another brother mentioned, I probably would not have signed on anyway just because it is such a badly written petition and without any clear and sensible objective in relation to who the petition is being sent to or how it is expected for them to address it.
Your original intent may not have been to “pick on” anyone, but your repeated comments and over-clarifications have in fact produced just that. The petition is simply not relevent, and your insistence that we embrace it just because you have is not fair.
jamal said
Wa Alaikum Asalaam
Firstly I didnt see your email and secondly I dont make habits of sending personal correspondence to sisters or people I dont know.
Comment sections are for public viewing and comment, where it then becomes your choice whether to allow or remove the comment.
Whereas you may be american, all your readers may not be. Therefore it is relevant to place it where available and request others do the same, as many have. Whether to “embrace” this or not has been your choice. Lets us stop making this out to be more then it is, as did Yusef Smith.
jamal said
“my email address is all over my blog”
For the record, it does not appear on the front page.
Aaminah said
Asalaamu alaikum,
Jamal, I don’t even see any sense in going over this repeatedly with you. YOU wrote here, on a sister’s blog, that “If you had an email or open thread it would have been forwarded in this manner” (comment #5 to this very post), but when I cite that you did NOT do that on blogs that did have an email address, you then claim you would not have emailed it to a sister. You cannot have it both ways, either you would have emailed it to sister Ginny if her email was available (although that statement is flat out false because you did not email it to those who did) OR you wouldn’t have emailed it to her anyway because she is a woman, so you shouldn’t claim that you would have. Either way, you have just created a bold misstatement on your part, and publicly and clearly for all to see.
As to my email not being on my front page, that is just irrelevent. It is on almost every page besides the front page.
Your repeated escalating comments are what is making this a bigger issue than it should be. So perhaps you should be the one to stop talking now. It is not fair to tell others to shut up about the matter when you keep dredging it up and accusing them of not supporting you.
Aaminah said
Sorry Jamal, but you can’t just come on someone else’s blog and spew whatever you wish and then get touchy when it is answered. Maybe you should consider just leaving sister Ginny alone, since this is clearly you that has the issue more than her.
Ginny said
Assalamu alaikum, OK, I’m really considering closing the comments thread on this, I find this whole thing very ridiculous. I don’t think it matters what I, Aaminah, or anyone else says, Jamal will always, it seems come up with something else to say. I’m considering exercising some discretion over comments, although I really hate to do that becuase I feel like I’m stifling free speech or osmething. But hey, it’s my blog and I can do what I want with it.
jamal said
Wa Alaikum Asalaam
Aaminah. Actually, I responded here to the sister and that discussion ended. You have decided to come back and further comment directly towards me to make discussion with me approximatly 5 days later. Therefore you are the one who has decided to carry this on. I have merely responded to you out of courtesy.
In terms of your email you have admitted that it is not on your front page, just as it is not on the front page here.
If you had read what I already written rather then further commenting due to some apparant sense of comraderie then you would not still be making sweeping statements and leading arguements. I take no pleasure in stating that due to this the points you have made are redundant and your credibility actually diminishes with every post you make.
Ginny, although I smile at you unbrildeled support for your friend, I think the reference you make to me in your last comment was very unfair as I have already granted you an apology for the misunderstanding you incurred and had taken time to explain my position. On this note I will close.